Shebang: The idea of electronic consultations, even petitions -

Ann Macintosh: Yes

Shebang: On the internet sounds fine, in a way, and I know you are talking about finding out as many views as possible, But I think there are people who are worried about surveillance. In England and Scotland perhaps less so than in some countries but still. Anywhere in the world, there will be people who imagine some authority who is reading their arguments, monitoring their views, and saying : 'O.K I see, this is a dissenter, and this is their computer, let's find out all about them'. That's what people are afraid of. Surveillance of dissenters has happened in history; it happens.

Ann Macintosh: I take your point - I should have said that there's nothing inherently Democratic or otherwise about technology. But it can be an enabler. It is value free At the beginning I mentioned the increasing uptake of technology. If you Think about the number of people who now have mobile phones; and the number Of people getting digital TV - it's this sort of media that you'll be using to put across your e-democracysystems and applications. So that although the digital divide is here at the moment I can see that it will get less if we're going to be using these devices. I mean I wouldn't want anybody to think that I thought that technology in itself was something that was democratic. It is an enabler. And it doesn't stop and ask who or why it is enabling If you're thinking of surveillance and security again, giving your personal details and displaying this information for everyone to see are two different issues. You don't always have to give your name in the first place. I mean in some electronic consultation systems that we use - I'll give you an example. We've just done one for the Scottish Executive, to consult 11-18 year olds on what they think are the major issues facing young people living in Scotland today. So there was a lot of discussion on drugs for instance. And the electronic consultation instruction says 'Don't give your name here. Just give a nickname that you want to be known by'. So they were talking about drugs. And a number of them were saying 'I think that drugs should be legalised in Scotland. And I take XXXX. And my name is this and I'm proud of it -' You know - [LAUGHTER] You know, 'Hah quick' remove the name, because that's not fair, these young people don't know that they're incriminating themselves. On the other hand I do ask for personal details because I am doing research to evaluate these sort of systems and I need to appreciate the background of the users.

Shebang: Absolutely, but these things are subject to abuse. That's what people might be concerned about. I can tell you frankly that is what I am concerned about. [Shebang's reporter, Jack Klaff, has written extensively about the rule of law, and had alluded to this before the interview began]

Ann Macintosh: Yes. There's two issues. There's the question of it being subject to abuse. And there's also the issue that people quite regularly ask me about and that Is the social exclusion issue as well. Because not everybody's got access -

Shebang: Not everybody can afford a computer

Ann Macintosh: A computer and access to the internet, yes.

Shebang: Yes.

Ann Macintosh: On the hacker side -being open to abuse. Every system, whether it 's Computer-based or not, is open to abuse by a person that's determined to Get in there. O.K.? And the sort of systems, the sort of safeguards we have: You don't see them in the system, but we have confidence ratings. How many Times has a person tried to hit this site from the same I.P. address?

Shebang: What is an IP address - forgive my ignorance

Ann Macintosh: Internet provider, Also, Is this person living at an address that's a legal Address? Has this person submitted an e-mail address? There are examples of Confidence ratings that you can have. And it's a matter of how important it Is to you that there is a valid name and address as to how much you want to Use that confidence rating. For example, for electronic voting knowing Exactly who is voting and that they only vote once is critical. At the Moment we're running an electronic election for the Highland region in Scotland. Highland region has 200,000 people spread over 10,000 square Miles. It's one of the most sparsely populated areas in Europe. So Electronic government systems, electronic democracy is quite important to Them. They've got 14,000 young people in schools. And they're worried that They're not listening to these young people. So we're running a complete Electronic election. Never been run at all in the U.K. before. And we're Running it for these young people in the Highlands

Shebang: Has it been run anywhere in the world before?

Ann Macintosh: Oh, well, you've got the States. In the primary, in Arizona, they had Internet voting for the first time last March

Shebang: That was the first time? That was the first time for legally binding public voting over the internet.

Shebang: And which party was that?

Ann Macintosh: The Democrats.

Shebang: It was the Democrats. [LISTENER-IN LAUGHS] Al Gore who invented the Internet, after all. In the U.K. they had elections for the councils and for the mayor of London And they did a number of trials - I think there was an electronic one, Postal one, telephone one because they're trying to increase the turnout of The vote. In fact the postal one won. People are still getting used to Technology.

Shebang: That's so in England and Scotland more than the States though isn't it? the Unfamiliarity with the technology?

Ann Macintosh: That's right, yes. Well actually the States is a good example. They've had Electronic petitions for ages. And if you look at the really exciting Petitioning sites in the States, you'll see that a really good petition will Get a thousand signatures something like that. That's because you actually Have to make an effort to sign it.

Shebang: Exactly -

Ann Macintosh: The one I'm running for Downing Street at the moment has got nearly 4,000 Signatures.

Shebang: Why do you think that is?

Ann Macintosh: It's on environmental issues. It's on sustaining U.K. oceans. It's an Environmental sustainability issue. People tend to like to vote and comment On issues, not because of political parties but because of an issue that They're interested in, such as the environment. You tend to find people Grouped these days like that around single issues.