Shebang: I understand. But what about your own background. I happen to know -because You've told me that you started in intelligence technology, artificial Intelligence. You trained as a physicist first. So what's the journey from Physicist and science-based technology person - many people who have that Kind of background can't even spell the word politics -

Ann Macintosh: I could argue there with you a bit - I can just spell politics. [LAUGHTER]

Shebang: Well, yes, I am saying that you're different. And even if some boffins do Have some political interests, how did you get there?

Ann Macintosh: It's an interesting research field isn't it?

Shebang: I'm talking about what gets you up in the morning. What got your juices Going about this? I'm saying you actually care about it.

Ann Macintosh: I do care about it yes [LAUGHTER]

Shebang: Well that's what I'm asking [LAUGHTER]

Ann Macintosh: I get very excited about it because I see it as an opportunity. Electronic Voting - I'm not too interested about that, really. You know the first time a country uses on-line voting, they may get a huge turnout. But it's just For the gimmicky-ness of it. Right. So electronic voting isn't what it is For me. It's getting people more informed, and letting them have their say. That's what really interests me. I mean I'm not interested in politics. That Doesn't really excite me.

Shebang: Really?!

Ann Macintosh: No. Not politics. It's

Shebang: But just a second, isn't 'getting more people involved and having their say' Politics?

Ann Macintosh: That's democracy

Shebang: But isn't democracy politics?! I mean what - [VOICES OVERLAP LOUDLY]

Ann Macintosh: That's a good question! [LAUGHTER]

Shebang: What do you think politics IS?

Ann Macintosh: OK I'm not interested in party political politics. Just getting votes! You Know? I'm against that! I want people to have their say. Don't get me Wrong. I'm using e-democracy techniques to support representative democracy. I would like to see how we could support the elected politicians, and -

Shebang: Support them? Excuse me you've just been suggesting that you wanted to stop Them!

Ann Macintosh: Well - I know I did -some I like some I don't! But I would like to see how Technology can help them do a better job. Some of the Scottish politicians, And this is just an example, they're in Edinburgh most of the time, because That's where the parliament is, while the people they represent, they're out On the islands. So how we can we develop technology so that they can Understand what the people they represent actually want them to vote for and Want them to say on issues that are important to them. I really want to work On those sorts of systems - supporting both the politician and the citizen To become better informed. In that way the people have a better say in the Political process.

Shebang: But one of the things you haven't yet answered is how do we find out what They're doing? One of the ways of using power is operating a system of Secrecy. Knowledge is power, and there's a lot that we don't know. The Internet gives us a certain insight but they're not about to put out onto The internet what they're really up to.

Ann Macintosh: Yes. And also you see if you look at government web-sites now, they are Mostly one-way communications.

Shebang: Which way?

Ann Macintosh: They are informing the citizen of what they're doing

Shebang: Really??? Rather than?

Ann Macintosh: Rather than two- way communication. 'We're thinking of thinking this. What do you think about it?' And ''We can't actually go all the way towards what You are suggesting but we're considering your opinion.'

Shebang: But you really are convinced that they're telling us everything? They're not telling us everything.

Ann Macintosh: [SIGHS] They're really good at using technology to inform us. This conference that I was at, in Stockholm. There were representatives from the European Parliament, the Finnish Parliament the Czechoslovakian Parliament and the Polish Parliament. And they were all saying that they were doing their best To put up government websites that published all the information on all Their draft bills so that people could be informed about what they were working on. So that there is a movement towards informing people, but I want to jump ahead of that. I don't want just the one way communication. I want this two-way communication. That's what I'm looking for.

Shebang: Can you please be cynical now, can we ask you to do that? What is the really Tough side of this?

Ann Macintosh: That's easy. That's not a difficult question.

Shebang: No I know, but you sit here before us with bright eyes.

Ann Macintosh: I had bright eyes when I started but I realise what the real difficulty is. It's getting the politicians actually to listen and for them to make a difference. There was the Minister for Democracy speaking -

Shebang: There's a Minister for Democracy!?

Ann Macintosh: In Sweden. And she was saying that it's all very well introducing democratic Processes, but people will stop communicating with us unless they can Actually see or understand that they are being listened to. You can ask your Citizens one too many times to have their say, 'Tell us what you think'. But Unless you actually can be seen to be acting on what they're saying, they'll Stop. And you'll just get apathy all over again. On this youth consultation That I was doing for Scotland, we ran an evaluation on it and it was really Great. Young people - from the results - are really uninhibited about using The technology. They will tell you what they think. And they said that they Liked being asked for their opinions. And they liked using this technology - The internet - as a medium whereby they could be consulted. The one thing That they said they weren't sure about, that really concerned them, was That what they were saying would not make a difference. They wouldn't be Listened to. So you've asked me what the problem is. And the problem is the Next stage- getting politicians to listen, and getting them to respond back, And giving feedback to what's being said.